Posts by Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu

80

The Fundamental difference between Islam and Christianity

by ILoveTTATT2 in

jw
friends

ever since i came out of the witnesses, i've become very political.. i've heard lots of arguments back and forth for many things.. in the u.s. there is the argument that it is "racist" to want to deny entry to muslims.

while there is freedom of religion, there is also the very valid concern of maintaining democracy and a justice system that is based on modern values.we as exjw's constantly quote the pew center for statistics on jw's such as: they are last place in the us for members of a religion that go to university, and second-last for poverty levels of members of a religion.

we accept those statistics and mention them as proof of how damaging the jw's are.now, let's use the same center for some very scary statistics on islam:http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/22/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/.

Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu

Rainbow, about the Quranists, this is really controversial. You say, they return to the Quran alone. This makes them non-muslims, because Muslims need to follow the prophet Mohammed.

The aya also mentioned in my last post

Surah 4:80
He who obeys the Messenger has obeyed Allah ; but those who turn away - We have not sent you over them as a guardian.

If they turn away from the things their messenger said, then they will be rejected by all other Muslims. From my own non-Muslim point of view, I cannot really view them as Muslims if they don't listen to Mohammed.

Rainbow you also say

An Islam based on the Koran would at least respect the right of other religions to exist and it would end the death penalty for every offense save murder

The thing I would like to say about this, is: an Islam based on the Quran alone is no longer Islam. You cannot simply say, we now reject the scriptures about our prophet. The scriptures are there, and form an essential part of Islam.

80

The Fundamental difference between Islam and Christianity

by ILoveTTATT2 in

jw
friends

ever since i came out of the witnesses, i've become very political.. i've heard lots of arguments back and forth for many things.. in the u.s. there is the argument that it is "racist" to want to deny entry to muslims.

while there is freedom of religion, there is also the very valid concern of maintaining democracy and a justice system that is based on modern values.we as exjw's constantly quote the pew center for statistics on jw's such as: they are last place in the us for members of a religion that go to university, and second-last for poverty levels of members of a religion.

we accept those statistics and mention them as proof of how damaging the jw's are.now, let's use the same center for some very scary statistics on islam:http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/22/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/.

Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu

In addition to my first post. Here Some quran verses that say you can choose your own religion, and after that some from Haddith that forbids that practice. Haddith is made superior here to Quran

Surah 2:256
There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.

Surah 18:29
And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve

Surah 109:6
For you is your religion, and for me is my religion

These were the Quran verses, now HADITH

The most reliable Hadith collection contain numerous accounts of Muhammad and his companions putting people to death for leaving Islam. According to verse 4:80 of the Quran: "Those who obey the Messenger obey Allah."

Sahih Bukhari (52:260) - "...The Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "

Sahih Bukhari (83:37) - "Allah's Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and (3) a man who fought against Allah and His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate."

Sahih Bukhari (84:57) - [In the words of] "Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

Sahih Bukhari (89:271) - A man who embraces Islam, then reverts to Judaism is to be killed according to "the verdict of Allah and his apostle."

Sahih Bukhari (84:58) - "There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu'adh asked, 'Who is this (man)?' Abu Muisa said, 'He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.' Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, 'I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice.' Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, 'Then we discussed the night prayers'"

Sahih Bukhari (84:64-65) - "Allah's Apostle: 'During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection.'" This verse from the Hadith is worse than it appears because it isn't speaking solely of apostates, but those who say they believe but don't put their religion into practice.

Sahih Bukhari (11:626) - "The Prophet said, 'No prayer is harder for the hypocrites than the Fajr and the 'Isha' prayers and if they knew the reward for these prayers at their respective times, they would certainly present themselves (in the mosques) even if they had to crawl.' The Prophet added, 'Certainly I decided to order the Mu'adh-dhin (call-maker) to pronounce Iqama and order a man to lead the prayer and then take a fire flame to burn all those who had not left their houses so far for the prayer along with their houses'."

Abu Dawud (4346) - "Was not there a wise man among you who would stand up to him when he saw that I had withheld my hand from accepting his allegiance, and kill him?" Muhammad is chastising his companions for allowing an apostate to "repent" under duress. (The person in question was Muhammad's former scribe, who left him after doubting the authenticity of divine "revelations" - upon finding out that grammatical changes could be made. He was brought back to Muhammad after having been captured in Medina).

al-Muwatta of Imam Malik (36.18.15) - "The Messenger of Allah said, "If someone changes his religion - then strike off his head."

Reliance of the Traveller (Islamic Law) o8.1 - "When a person who has reached puberty and is sane voluntarily apostatizes from Islam, he deserves to be killed." (o8.4 affirms that there is no penalty for killing an apostate).

So if you have debates with Muslims about their freedom to change their religion, they will probably show you the Quran verses, but what it is really all about is the Haddith here. It clearly is forbidden for them, no matter how they say or quote things

80

The Fundamental difference between Islam and Christianity

by ILoveTTATT2 in

jw
friends

ever since i came out of the witnesses, i've become very political.. i've heard lots of arguments back and forth for many things.. in the u.s. there is the argument that it is "racist" to want to deny entry to muslims.

while there is freedom of religion, there is also the very valid concern of maintaining democracy and a justice system that is based on modern values.we as exjw's constantly quote the pew center for statistics on jw's such as: they are last place in the us for members of a religion that go to university, and second-last for poverty levels of members of a religion.

we accept those statistics and mention them as proof of how damaging the jw's are.now, let's use the same center for some very scary statistics on islam:http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/22/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/.

Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu

What is also interesting is Naskh (abrogation). This is when there are contradictions found in the Quran, Sunnah, Haddith that the newest aya (verse) replaces the older aya(s).

For instance, there are ayas in the Quran that shows alcohol was not forbidden for Muslims, but later an aya was written in which it was said that it was forbidden, so the newest aya makes the older no longer relevant.

for the example below, note that Quran is not chronological, but organized in terms of length. So the aya from chapter 3 can replace the aya from chapter 5 and 2.

Surah 2:62 (some claim this is abrogated by Surah 3:85 below)

Those who believe (in the Quran) and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures) and the Christians and the Sabians, - Any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord: on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

Surah 5:69 (some claim this is also abrogated by Surah 3:85 below)

If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course : but many of them follow a course that is evil.

Surah 3:85

If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to God), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).
So we see a complete contradiction here. Will only Muslims be rewared for there faith or also Christians and Jews? Because of Naskh, little to no attention is paid to verses that speak positively about faiths other than Islam, or to the many many other contradictions in the Quran. Smart solution!

80

The Fundamental difference between Islam and Christianity

by ILoveTTATT2 in

jw
friends

ever since i came out of the witnesses, i've become very political.. i've heard lots of arguments back and forth for many things.. in the u.s. there is the argument that it is "racist" to want to deny entry to muslims.

while there is freedom of religion, there is also the very valid concern of maintaining democracy and a justice system that is based on modern values.we as exjw's constantly quote the pew center for statistics on jw's such as: they are last place in the us for members of a religion that go to university, and second-last for poverty levels of members of a religion.

we accept those statistics and mention them as proof of how damaging the jw's are.now, let's use the same center for some very scary statistics on islam:http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/22/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/.

Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu

You are right in saying that they are fundamentally different.

Many people (mainly left people) say that we should not make a difference between the religions, we all have freedom of religion!

there is a very, very big problem in that reasoning.

a fundamental and extremely important part of freedom of religion is the freedom to change your religion. When not all religions act the same on this principle, then we should not say they are equal and deserve the same status.

for instance, all mainstream christian denominations accept and respect when somebody leaves or change faith

JW's I see them as somewhat in the middle, they accept it but do not respect it in my eyes (because of shunning etc).

islam is not accepting it and not respecting it if somebody leaves the faith

so NO the religions are not equal

when i debate this with pro-muslims at university, they say that what I say is discrimination to the muslims.

in fact, it is not. The left people are the ones accepting islam and the fact that islam takes some rights from muslims away

i think the individual rights are superior than the rights we give to religions

if we choose to give muslims the opportunity to have the same freedom as we have, which they 100% deserve, then we MUST take a stance against islam

if a religion does not accept certain rights for individuals, the religion must change. But Islam will not change, so we will have to treat that religion differently than religions that DO respect ALL the FREEDOM rights that EVERY individual has, every muslim, every christian, everybody.

i am against islam, but in no single way against muslims, they are victims of this oppressing religion and should be helped whenever possible

63

2017 Circuit Assembly: Lesbians at school demonstration

by darkspilver in

jw
friends

steve2: is there some way this can be presented so that it is crystal clear what was actually in the demonstrations and what was added?

i guess some will think it should be obvious - but this is where misunderstandings arise because we end up wrongly attributing something to jw organization that was never said.. circuit assembly theme: maintain love for jehovah!.

note to speaker: warmly encourage young ones to prove their friendship with jehovah by observing his commandments and defending his standards.

Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu

At second 35

"lesbians are disgusting!"

whole audience laughs

63

2017 Circuit Assembly: Lesbians at school demonstration

by darkspilver in

jw
friends

steve2: is there some way this can be presented so that it is crystal clear what was actually in the demonstrations and what was added?

i guess some will think it should be obvious - but this is where misunderstandings arise because we end up wrongly attributing something to jw organization that was never said.. circuit assembly theme: maintain love for jehovah!.

note to speaker: warmly encourage young ones to prove their friendship with jehovah by observing his commandments and defending his standards.

Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MpQc0eTev-U

This one i can find but there was one that was much clearer

63

2017 Circuit Assembly: Lesbians at school demonstration

by darkspilver in

jw
friends

steve2: is there some way this can be presented so that it is crystal clear what was actually in the demonstrations and what was added?

i guess some will think it should be obvious - but this is where misunderstandings arise because we end up wrongly attributing something to jw organization that was never said.. circuit assembly theme: maintain love for jehovah!.

note to speaker: warmly encourage young ones to prove their friendship with jehovah by observing his commandments and defending his standards.

Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu

This exact demonstration i saw somewhere on youtube

forgot the title though. But it is there somewhere

32

Refuting Watchtarded Reasoning - 1. "If a doctor tells you to abstain from alcohol, you wouldn't inject it..."

by Island Man in

i'm hoping to start a series of posts refuting common, fallacious jw reasoning that they repeat to support their teachings or defend their organization.

in this first installment i will be tackling the common fallacious analogy used by them to equate eating blood with receiving a transfusion.

feel free to share your own refutations on each thread.. "if a doctor tells you to abstain from alcohol you wouldn't go injecting it into your veins, would you?".

Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu

That is a really nice explanation. I was actually searching a long time for a logic reasoning like this against that JW doctrine.

Thanks

25

Watchtower No.3 2017 - The Four Horesmen

by pale.emperor in

this is the first time i've read through a watchtower magazine in about a year.

although i've been our only 8 months it really git me how crazy i must have sounded when i was a jw talking to non jws.. while other bible based religions talk about the 4 horsemen and back up their theories with other scriptures or historical evidence, the watchtower have taken so such steps.

1914 is thrown in there as if it's universally agreed that jesus started ruling since then.. even when i was a jw i never really understood why, if the pale horse represents jesus, why is he first?

Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu

Acts 1:

Jesus says:

8. You will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

I was thinking about this. Jesus will come out of heaven the same way the apostles saw him go into heaven.

To my knowledge, the witnesses explain that ''the same way'' means that it would only be seen by a small group of people (the few apostles present at Jesus ascension vs. the few Bible students).

But

This thing about these four horses

They say

Jesus came out of heaven

In 1914

On a horse

And they mean

To only a few bible students

And he was still in heaven for the seals

But also on earth

And all of this was

INVISIBLE

How crazy does this actually sound???????????????

Ps. maybe they should create some kind of doctrine in which Jesus would be more than one person so that they can add some logic to their teaching about Jesus being in heaven for the seals and at the same time on the earth riding on the horse

They should just accept some kind of ..... trinity?

25

Watchtower No.3 2017 - The Four Horesmen

by pale.emperor in

this is the first time i've read through a watchtower magazine in about a year.

although i've been our only 8 months it really git me how crazy i must have sounded when i was a jw talking to non jws.. while other bible based religions talk about the 4 horsemen and back up their theories with other scriptures or historical evidence, the watchtower have taken so such steps.

1914 is thrown in there as if it's universally agreed that jesus started ruling since then.. even when i was a jw i never really understood why, if the pale horse represents jesus, why is he first?

Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu

The first rider cannot be Jesus. Revelation 6 is describing the beginning of the tribulation, and Jesus is supposed to come back to end the tribulation

Matthew 24:29-30
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days:
‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’b
30 At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.c).

In revelation 6 the Lamb is the one that opens the seals, as said in earlier comments, Jesus cannot at the same time be the one riding the white horse.

Also, when Jesus comes, at the end of the tribulation, he will not be the only one riding a white horse (not the one in chapter 6). He will bring others from Heaven with him who also will be on white horses. We do not know how many of these white horses there will be.

Revelation 19
11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns.He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”[a] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.

Here is a description of Armageddon, which is not the same as revelation 6. In revelation 6 it is the beginning of tribulation with only one white horse, and in revelation 19 it is the end of the tribulation with more white horses.

I think Jesus cannot be the horseman of revelation 6 as how WT describes it.

If they say it is Jesus, then revelation 6 is his second coming, and revelation 19 (in correspondance with the text of Matthew 24) is his third coming???